Hello Guys,

I would like to take this opportunity to discuss the above event which takes place in Pamplona, Spain (6th-14th July).

This so called "festival" has to be the most disturbing events that I ever heard of in the world. It is simply evil and barbaric to allow these animals to be provoked, tortured and eventually killed. After the whole event, apparantly everybody commences in a massive party, is this somesort of celebaration? I cannot understand WHAT'S the meaning of this "festival". Can anyone explain this?

I urge you all fellow travellers, to boycott this unneccessary slaughter of these animals.

I look forward to some feedback soon.

Thank you for your attention.

Kevin.

i'm very sorry to disagree with you, kevin, but the bull fight has been and is part of my spainsh and french experience.(Bullfighting is also popular in the south of france -nimes holds prestige) true, what is one mans meat is another's poison. I myself regard it as an form of art.so do many others. the world is a savage place.i enjoy my steaks with a fine roija or bordeaux.
many would disapprove of me going down the 'dam buying a bit of tuffle and lighting up a doobe in the bulldog. i've enjoyed san fermin and will do so again.
i respect your opinions but beg to differ.

Hello Ian,

Thanks for your response to my post. I found it astonishing when you refer to the above practice as "art"!. Please can explain this in greater detail as I am confused. How can one possibly appreciate this act? Surely, the killing of an animal/person cannot be deemed as artistic. This festival should not even be considered as a sporting event.

I look forward to more feedback in due course.

Thanks

Kevin

Kevin:
Taking away the stigma attached to blood sports, then the bull fight can be taken to be an art form in the same light as ancient japanese fighting rituals are often seen:The killing of the bull has powerful provocations. Here's a poem:

oh! nobel bull
with eyes so full
you are challenged to a duel
to the bloody end
you dont give up
your pride and soul are too proud...
..and our rational is at steak.
oh! nobel bull
you are no fool
your respect is my honour.

I've never considered bullfighting as an art and have to confess to a fair degree of discomfort about the idea of slaughtering animals for pleasure ... but your poem has given me a real boost (and an insight into your artistic appreciation.

I do so hope that you were being ironic - I suppose the use of "steak" for "stake" should be a clue that you were. Not so sure about the "rational/rationale" thing though - maybe too clever for me. Really, really awful verse that E Jarvis Thribb would be proud of. I'm still laughing. Did you write it yourself or translate it from Finnish armed only with a Finnish to Gaelic dictionary and a second Gaelic to English one?

However as regards the 'celebration' I'm with Kevin and against Hemmingway. I'm not really a bleeding heart liberal - I just see killing animals for fun as bullying. Like bad poets, they're just too easy a target.

Hello Chris,

Thanks for your post on the above subject and it was good to see some support on this matter.

I did not take much noticed of the spellings of "steak" and "rational" in the poem, which leads me to be believe that this is complete hoax! How could I have possibly overlooked that?

I was discussing the matter with a close friend recently and we have come to the conclusion that this type of "festival" will NEVER be banned. I do not wish to be negative but, it is simply a multi-million Pound or Euro industry, which generates tourism and employment. After all, I believe that it financially benefits the Spanish Government and Monarchy, who will never disagree with this practice!!

Does anybody else have any views on this subject?

Thanks

Kevin

It's sometimes difficult to know what to do when confronted with something you think is wrong - there's so much to choose from that you could spend your life campaigning and sending of e-mails to governments, corporations etc.

I suspect that you're right when you say that financial interests probably mean that the festival (and other event like it) will continue, but if enough people object it is sometimes possible to change minds.

I for one won't be going to any bull fights or bull running events. I won't make a difference on my own, but I'll probably spread the word when I get the chance.

Hello all,

I am an American of Spanish ancestry and would like to give my opinion on this matter. I must admit it annoys me how unaware people (including myself) are concerning their CULTURAL reaction to this matter. The first poster (Kevin) actually condems the whole affair while he admits that he understands nothing about it.

Many outsiders see this as a sport (e.g., hunting etc.) and are naturally offended at it. they say, "How is this a sport?" "it would be more fair if the bull could kill the man" etc. However, this shows the cultural difference. Many Spaniards see this as an art. How is this an art? (I find it ironic that some fail to see it as an art given how loosly we use that term nowadays e.g., driping paint on canvas or dung on religious symbols.)It shows the struggle of life and death and is a metaphor for the struggle between men and women. the matador represents the woman (notice he wears a pony tail, fancy clothes etc.) the bull is the man who pursues her and gets killed everytime. There is alot more to it but that is the basics of this ART.
I respect your disgust for it. And I don't even mind if you speak out against it. But you should 1) be educated about a topic before you speak 2)be aware of how your culture could blind you to the subject.
I went to several bullfights while staying with family in Spain and ate the meat of the bull afterwards. Many people don't mind killing and eating animals so long as it is out of sight. You choose not to see the butchering of your meat but others don't mind it. Remember, they eat all the meat, and love and respect the bull more than you understand.

Respectfully,
Morientes

Sr. Morientes does raise an interesting point about cultural awareness. really its about being able to work the lingo of the country. True, if i off clubbing with mates to ibzia it doesnt really matter. but the only way to scratch below the surface of another culture is to use their lingo, Thats my experience, anyway. even when i visit places like hungry or sweden i borrow tapes from the library, buy phrase books and forever end up asking the time or directions to places! If I can get through booking a room without the receptionist breaking into english then i know i getting there. part of the challenge of travelling, isn't it?

Buenas Tardes, Que tal estas?

I am replying to your recent post which I find most offensive. You claim that I should be (and I quote) "educated before I speak" and "condems the whole affair while he knows nothing about it".
This is utter nonsense, my knowledge on this subject is relatively good. To prove this, I can explain to you and fellow travellers THE FACTS:

* The bull is kept is a darken enclosure for several hours before the actual fight. He is provoked and subjected to physical abuse during this time.

* Once the bull is released from the area, he is confused and dazed by the sunlight, thus behaving in an aggressive manner.

* Throughout the whole event, the matador continues to provoke the aninal and his aim is to exhaust him, ready to be killed. Sharp swords are inserted into his back during the duel and is eventually slaughtered.

Do you dispute the above statements? I would not have started a discussion on this topic WITHOUT having any background knowledge. What I cannot understand is the senseless torture and killing of these animals. I oppose ALL forms of cruelty to animals and human life.


Kevin.

Kevin,

It seems you overlooked the issue I was trying to raise. You said: "I can't understand what's the meaning of this festival", and then you asked for someone to explain it to you. This is the matter that you seemed to be ignorant about. I was trying to give you a little insight into this cultural affair. To me, it seems you should understand THIS aspect of the festival before you form certain opinions. There are aspects of all cultures that seem barbaric to outsiders. (Our gun culture, for example, is a mystery to outsiders).

I do not dispute the bull is killed in the ring--and far too often it is not a quick kill. as far as the bull being disoriented or placed in dark enclosures and acting aggressive, this is a minor point (it is a bull not a poodle). The bull is raised on a farm where he lives like a king. the bull is not mistreated like some lowlives in our country--and other countries--mistreat animals and raise bull dogs to fight. Again this is not a bloodsport (e.g., cockfighting or boxing) but an art. The matadors are booed if they prolong the bulls death.

Many animals in our country are caused to suffer before death--and often for much longer than the bull. calves are caused to suffer to make veal. Go to a factory to see how some of these animals are butchered. Unless you are a vegetarian, you can't argue that this is cruel because you can see it but eating veal or steak is fine because it is out of sight.

as far as you taking offense to my post, well, I do not feel I need to apologize. 1) I wasn't directly addressing you but was making a general observation.(I think most of us are culturally unaware and I included myself in this category.) 2) I deliberately used words like respectfully to show my tone and temperment. I think perhaps you are to quickly offended. I did not take offense at you for addressing me in poorly constructed spanish even though I mentioned I am an American. I realized you were not deliberately trying to offend me and paid no further attention to it. I hope you will extend me the same courtesy.

Morientes

your english is certainly very good. Are you from the USA or Canada?

As Morientes points out, art takes any forms and much of it is difficult for many people to understand. I struggle with formaldehyde-preserved half-sheep or piles of bricks (UK contributors will understand) but I'm prepared to accept that it's probably me who has the problem and that the artist knows what he/she is doing.

Slaughtering a living creature for entertainment cannot be justified by calling it art. It's unpleasant. It falls into the same category as cock-fighting, bear-baiting etc. It is brutal and it diminishes humanity.

Comparing it to food production is spurious. Many people agree that some modern farming and slaughterhouse methods are cruel - and you don't have to be a vegetarian to accept this, but that doesn't make the slightest different. Any act of cruelty, be it beating a small child, torturing a captured airman or slashing at a specially bred bull with swords, stands on its own. You can't justify it by referring to other forms of cruelty you are aware of.

As for hiding behind culture, well it's not that long ago that slavery was part of the culture of many countries. More recently the obscenity of apartheid was prevalent in one nation. Progress overtakes culture and this is sometimes for the good.

Bullfighting is an anachronism. It deserves to be assigned to the waste bin of history.

One last question - is it possible to gamble on the outcome of the bullfight?

Hello,

I have read your views with great interest and find some of the comments not only distastful but unacceptable.

You stated that it is a "minor point" when the bull is placed in dark enclosures and subjected to physical abuse. This type of response is absolutely disgraceful, does the animal have to be subjected to this type of torture just for sake of peoples entertainment or pleasure? One really has to say to themselves WHY is practice allowed to continue in our modern world. I am sure that if the Matador is injured/killed, there would be public outcry!.

You make the comparision of this bloodsport to the practices of a slaughterhouse. I think that this is your way of justifing the matter. Remember, the animal is killed solely for human comsumption, not for entertaiment. I do not know of any slaughterhouses which have a public gallery and charge admission fees do you?

I would also like to inform you that I have recently completed a course in Spanish, (which I passed successfully.) My greeting was in an inform style, not "poorly constructed" as you so sarcastically put it. HOW DARE YOU!

Overall, your failure to apologise to me has offended me even further. Your comments were direct and not general at all. I feel that you are hiding behind a blanket of arragance.


Kevin

it is fair enough to disagree with bullfighting, as i myself heartily do. i find it barbaric, and a relic of an age which percieved the drawn out death of a human being as a public spectacle. it is not simply the fact of the Bull's inevitable death that distubs me, but the crowd's appreciation and bloodthirsty lust for death. surely we have moved on from such base instincts as experienced within the walls of the bullfight? perhaps not, and perhaps some of us never fully will.

however, a good point raised earlier was that regarding the maltreatment of all animals, especially those designated as food.

as a meat-eater i find myself in a bit of a quandry as i too buy pre-packed meat and cannot ever know the full origins of my steak or chicken. however, i am sure that it died a torrid death, most likely in a blood-soaked and foetid abbatoir, surrounded by thousands of other animals awaiting slaughter for our dinner tables.

at least the bull is allowed to live in princely glory whilst it is reared, more than can be said for almost all animals bought from a supermarket.

i would be more than happy to kill and butcher my own meat if possible, indeed, i have butchered chickens before. i wonder how many other meat-eaters would be prepared to do so?

many thanks. ben.

Kevin,
Your first posting said that you wanted to discuss the subject at hand. But as soon as anyone comes close to offering an exchange of opinions that are not exactly the same as yours you take offence.

I don't have strong feelings about this one way or the other but I DO think you shouldn't request a discussion if you are not prepared to engage in a frank and tolerant airing of different viewpoints.

Well hello kevin!

i am totally amazed at your complete opposition to this cultural tradition (tradition being the most important word here). why are we interested in other cultures? why do we visit other countries? isn't it because they are different to our own and that something we see or experience there may educate us and open our minds to new things?

you should also try and relax a bit as you take everything as a personal attack - if you cant take criticism than you shouldn't put your opinions up for disscussion.

also, why do you equate human death with animal death? they are hardly the same!

(might i add that killing animals for entertainment in antiquity was seen as a mark of civilization, status and overall importance for the everyone involved - hardly something that should be thrown in the "dustbin of history"!)

We often defend ancient *art forms* or societal *traditions* on the basis of preserving and respecting culture. But where do we draw the lines and evolve as a human race? Is bull fighting okay but female circumcision not? And if so, why? Both are violent and brutal, outdated cultural traditions. Both can be shown to be abusive and wrong. One is directed at a beast, the other at a human, clearly, but realistically, where and when do we preserve the stories but not the practices?

"We have it in our
power to start the
world again."
--Thomas Paine

itdoes taste better doesn't it when you know the beast has just been slaughtered. I mean seeing a lobster drowned in boiling water, does make it tastier. maybe i'm a pervert but it is just the way my taste buds work. of coures there are limits and common sense must prevail. animal welfare is an issue today. thesooner we realise we're eating a pumped up chemical cocktail when we pig out on chicken the sooner we'll choose freerange. likewise with biocrop genetic engineering. but i'm just a 5 pinter out for a good time.

hey!
i dont want to sound like a pessimist but our world is not exactly civilized just yet! we still have a long way to go!